Oh yeah, he was really eager to have you come down there and fight. Does that interest you, to fight a white cop in South Africa?

On the basis that on that day there'd be equality in the arena where I'm fighting.

But would that interest you? With all the heavy political overtones? How do you feel about something like that? Along with a million-dollar gate?

Yeah, I like it. With the approval of all the other African nations and Moslem countries. I wouldn't go against their wishes, regardless of how they made the arena that night, if the ma.s.ses of the country and the world were against it, I wouldn't go. I know that I have a lot of fans in South Africa, and they want to see me. But I'm not going to crawl over other nations to go. The world would have to say: "Well, this case is special, they've given the people justice. His going is helping the freedom."

There's a dramatic quality to that thing -- -- I can't think of any other fight that would have that kind of theater. Actually it might even be too I can't think of any other fight that would have that kind of theater. Actually it might even be too much much politics. . . politics. . .

What worries me is gettin' whupped by a white man in South Africa.

Oh ho Yeah! [Nervous chuckle] [Room breaks into laughter]

[Laughing] That's what the world needs. . . me getting whupped by a white man in South Africa! That's what the world needs. . . me getting whupped by a white man in South Africa! [Still laughing] [Still laughing]

Oh yeah. . .

Getting whupped by a white man period, period, but in South Africa? If a but in South Africa? If a white South African white South African fighter beat me. . . ? fighter beat me. . . ?

Jesus. . .

Oh, Lord. [Chuckles] [Chuckles]

Oh, you'd have to win. . . You would definitely have to win. Did you see the film of his fight with Bobick? When he took him out in the third round? Was he good? Was he good?

He was a little slow, but he looked powerful. . . He didn't look to me like you would have any trouble with him, but I'm not an expert. He looked like you'd have to watch it. . .

Yeah, he took Bobick real hard. I don't think it would be wise for me to fight him in South Africa. If I beat him too bad and then leave the country, they might beat up some of the brothers. [Laughter in the room] [Laughter in the room] Or if he whup me too bad then there might be riots. . . People crazy. You know what I mean? If I whup him up too bad and look too good, then the brothers might get beat up after I leave. I wouldn't fool with it. I'm a representative of black people. . . It'd be good if I don't go to nothing like that. It's too touchy -- it's more than a sport when I get involved. Or if he whup me too bad then there might be riots. . . People crazy. You know what I mean? If I whup him up too bad and look too good, then the brothers might get beat up after I leave. I wouldn't fool with it. I'm a representative of black people. . . It'd be good if I don't go to nothing like that. It's too touchy -- it's more than a sport when I get involved.

But it's the fact that he's white. . .

[Confidentially] Did you know he called me a n.i.g.g.e.r? Did you know he called me a n.i.g.g.e.r?

What?

You didn't hear it? The South African. . .

[Aghast] No!

You was in Vegas, right?

[Confused] Yeah. . . we talked to him. . .

He said, "That c.o.c.ky n.i.g.g.e.r, that's one n.i.g.g.e.r I want. . ."

[Laughing] Aw, c'mon. He didn't say that. That guy was on his best behavior.

He said: "I want that n.i.g.g.e.r."

C'mon. . .

[Deep laugh] I was jokin'. . . I was jokin'. . .

He was on best behavior. . . The lawyer said, "You don't understand our country. I mean, it's not like you've heard at all. . ." And Conrad was saying, "Bulls.h.i.t! You got cages for those black people down there." He was rude.

CONRAD: He gave me a big argument. He gave me a big argument.

Did he slap you?

CONRAD: Slap Slap me? [Laughs] me? [Laughs] I had I had Hunter Hunter with me! with me!

I had a can of mace in my pocket. . .

[Ali, laughing and looking at his watch] Okay, now you've got five minutes. Okay, now you've got five minutes.

Let's see. . . five minutes.

I'll give you ten minutes. . . See, see the clock?

Yeah, don't worry, I've got my own clock -- -- see this magnesium Rolex? Heavy, eh?. . . And see these? After you called me a b.u.m and a hippie last night, look what I wore for you this morning [holding up perforated wing tips]. see this magnesium Rolex? Heavy, eh?. . . And see these? After you called me a b.u.m and a hippie last night, look what I wore for you this morning [holding up perforated wing tips].

You're getting a good interview, man.

Yeah [reached for one of the shoes], look at that shine too.

Those are some good shoes -- those shoes must've cost about fifty dollars.

Yeah. They're about ten years old.

Are they? Same soles?

Yeah, these are my FBI shoes. I only wear them for special occasions -- -- n.o.body's called me a b.u.m n.o.body's called me a b.u.m and and a hippie for a long time. a hippie for a long time.

[Laughs] You're not going to drink your beer? You an alcoholic? You're not going to drink your beer? You an alcoholic?

Alcoholic! b.u.m! Hippie! Remember I've got to write an article about you before Friday!

Heh, heh, heh. You've got the beer. . . Heh, heh, heh. b.u.m and a hippie.

Where you going?

Right here, I'll talk louder so you can hear. . . What else you want to ask me?

My head's, uh, I'm still on that South Africa trip, I guess there'd be no way you could go down there without beating Leon first, right? there'd be no way you could go down there without beating Leon first, right?

No, I got to beat Leon first. I will defeat Leon first. I will go down as the triple greatest of all time.

Oh yeah, I think you might. If you train, if you get serious.

If I get serious? I'm as serious as cancer. Is cancer serious?

Well, yeah, I didn't realize, uh. . . if you're going to start training now that is serious, that's five months, six months.

I'm going to be ready! ready!

Would you call him a fast fighter. . . Leon? It seems like a funny word to use for him.

Fast? Yeah he was fast. Faster than I was that night. He's fast period.

Fast hands? Fast feet?

Fast hands. Not as fast as reflexes because of his weight. When I'm down to my weight that I would like to be I know I'm faster.

I noticed in the third round the first time I smelled a little bit of trouble was when I saw you missing him with the jab. . . it would be about six inches.

The one thing I did wrong, I didn't do no boxing hardly before this fight.

Why?

Well, my belief was at this age, too much pounding and getting hit and unnecessary training wasn't necessary.

Well, if too much training would have been bad for that fight, how about the next one, why would it be good for the next fight?

My timing was lost. Well, I'm going to have to box. . . I'm not saying it would have been bad to box; better for me, see, I wasn't boxing n.o.body and I was missing a lot of punches in that fight.

Yeah, I noticed that, that's when I first thought, "Oh oh. . . it'll be a long fight."

That's 'cause I wasn't boxing, I was. .h.i.tting bad.

You think you could knock Leon out?. . . I thought you could have in the fifteenth round.

I couldn't follow him up, might knock him out and might not. . .

Was there any time you thought maybe you might have. . . did you ever think he was going to knock you out. . . was there any time you thought, oh, oh, he might even put you down?

No, nothing like that.

Would it be more important next time to get faster?

No, next time it's to be in better shape, to take him more serious, to know him.

Why the h.e.l.l didn't you this time?

Didn't know him.

You got some of the smartest people in the business working with you.

Didn't know him. . . See all of my worst fights was when I fought n.o.bodies. Jurgen Blin, Zurich, Switzerland, seven rounds with him, didn't look too good. Al Lewis, Dublin, Ireland, a n.o.body, went eleven rounds. Jean-Pierre Coopman, San Juan, Puerto Rico. . . a n.o.body.

Bonavena?

He was pretty good. Alfredo Evangelista. A n.o.body, didn't look that hot.

Yeah, but Leon, you saw him fight several times, didn't you?

Amateurs, just seven. . . what can this man do with seven pro fights, never been over ten rounds. . .

But you had about fifteen or eighteen pro fights when you fought Liston the first time.

I don't know.

I think I counted them up the other day. . . nineteen maybe. nineteen maybe.

I caught him off guard too, I was supposed to have been annihilated like this boy was. But my best fights were those fights where I was the underdog: George Foreman's comeback, two Liston fights, Frazier fights, Norton. . .

Is that something in your head?

It makes you hungry, got something to work for. I'm doing good. Everything is going my way. I'm eating dinner. I'm living with my wife and my two children all up to the fight which ain't that good. Least six weeks before the fight I should get away from my children 'cause they make you soft. You hug 'em and you kiss them, you know, you 'round babies all day. Day before the fight, I'm babysitting 'cause my wife done some shopping. She didn't mean no harm.

You can't blame it on her, though.

No. I got to get away from the babies, I got to get evil. Got to chop trees, run up hills, get in my old log cabin.

You plan to go up there to stay, at the camp, live there until the fight?

Where. . . what fight. . . ?

You say you're going to go up there and do a monk sort of trip?

No, my wife and babies would be with me, but my babies they cry at night and they'll be in another cabin. . .

What about Leon's rib, do you think you broke his rib?

He got hurt in the fight some kind of way, and I was told after the fight he was hurt and some doctor was looking at him and that it wasn't that bad, and I guess when it looked like he was going to fight Norton they had to admit he was hurt 'cause Norton's a body puncher.

Well, speaking of that, I don't want to bring up any sore subject, but did you see Pacheco on the Tom Snyder show when he was talking about all athletes getting old. . .? He seemed to come down pretty hard. He said physically it would just be impossible for you to get back in shape to beat Leon.

I was fighting years before I knew Pacheco. He got famous hanging around me. They all got known. . . popular. They'd never admit it. . . and also Pacheco don't know me, he works in my corner, he's not my real physical doctor.

So you think you can get back in ninety-eight on a scale of a hundred?

Yeah. What I like, this is what I love. . . to do the impossible, be the underdog. Pressure makes me go. I couldn't. . . I didn't beat Frazier the first time, I didn't beat Norton the first time. I gotta beat the animal. I almost got to lose to keep going. It would be hard for me to keep getting the spirit up, what have I got to accomplish, who have I got to prove wrong?

Speaking of that, how did you ever get yourself in the situation where you had so much to lose and so little to gain by fighting Leon down there?

How did I get in what?

You got yourself in an almost no-win situation there where you had very little to win and a h.e.l.l of a lot to lose. It struck me as strategically bad. . .